Abhay Karandikar at Idea Exchange: ‘We need to not only be technologically self-reliant but also develop solutions that are disruptive and game-changing’

Amitabh Sinha: What is the vision for science in 2047? What needs to happen within science, for the Viksit Bharat goal to be realised?

The vision for achieving Viksit Bharat goals by 2047 really depends upon making our country a technological power. And to do that, we have to develop technologies that will address global challenges as well as solve the problems of our country and society. These problems can be put into three buckets.

One is to address the challenges of resource constraints in terms of things like food and water scarcity, housing and urban infrastructure. We have to find technological solutions to address these problems. Second is transforming lifestyles and improving quality of life. With the increase in life expectancy, India will have a significant older population. So , thinking about an affordable, scalable healthcare solution will be key. Then, issues of transport and environment, essentially climate change, will have to be addressed. So, if we can develop technologies which can give us solutions that are affordable and can be absorbed into the society, I think we can transform the entire landscape. It is important for us to not only become technologically self-reliant but also develop solutions which are disruptive and game-changing.

Abhay Karandikar, Secretary, Department of Science & Technology

Amitabh Sinha: How big is the gap between the leading countries and India, in terms of emerging and critical technologies?

There was the Australian Strategic Public Institute report, published last year, which tracks cutting-edge research in 64 critical technologies. India was within the top five in 45 of the 64 critical technologies. These include quantum sensing, cyber security and biofuels. There is a need to leverage this and translate it into technology and product development because while we have the potential, we are still not a world leader. We hope that in the next five to 10 years, we will be able to not only catch up but, maybe, be ahead in a few areas.

Amitabh Sinha: For more than three decades, we have heard of the aspiration to take R&D expenditure to two per cent of GDP. Right now it is less than 0.7 per cent. If this is one of the major obstacles, what are you doing to increase funding?

Our expenditure on R&D has not come down, it has remained at 0.6 to 0.7 per cent for the last several years. Developed nations, such as the US, China or South Korea, are spending about two to three per cent on R&D. Almost 70 per cent of that spend is by the private sector, only 30 per cent is by the government. Unless the private sector increases its expenditure, we are not going to have that transformation.

Generally, in India, the private sector has been risk-averse, barring a few of course. We are now the third-largest startup ecosystem. We have now got 1,50,000 startups and VC funding, too — about US$ 70 to 80 billion in the last few years. Now, our estimate is that maybe only 10,000 or 15,000 of these are actually technology startups. Most of the VC funding is in the e-commerce space, IT and business processes space. We don’t have a startup in gene therapy, for instance, and very few developing cutting-edge medical technology or developing quantum computers. So, we are stuck. We are not able to spur innovation. And government spending has limitations. In this budget, the government announced the setting up of a Rs 1 lakh crore fund to invest in private sector R&D. This fund will not go into academic R&D, it will fund private sector projects. The objective is to minimise the risks of the private sector. It is our hope that when the government invests Rs 1 lakh crore, it will bring in Rs 10 lakh crore. If that happens, it will be a game changer.

Amitabh Sinha: Around 2000, China was in a similar situation, especially with funding and private sector participation. Now that has changed. A single university in China has a bigger budget than a lot of premier institutions in India put together. What are our learnings from that experience?

One thing that China has been doing is to achieve scaling. It is not just sufficient to publish a few good papers or get breakthrough patents. You have to publish an order of magnitude larger than what is happening, and of higher quality. Then maybe few of them will succeed and become transformative.

That scaling which the Chinese universities and the Chinese industry have managed is unprecedented. Also, China invested heavily not only in funding, but also in talent. They encouraged Chinese scientists who were working all around the world to work with home institutions and back-home scientists. That investment in talent and collaborative projects at that scale was key to bringing about these transformations.

Abhay Karandikar, Secretary, Department of Science & Technology, with Amitabh Sinha, Deputy Editor, The Indian Express, at the Noida office (Express/Praveen Khanna)

Amitabh Sinha: The government has set up the ANRF broad-base research in India and taken research to universities. Do you see some excitement in universities with respect to this?

With ANRF, the real operationalisation happened only last year. We have certain premier academic institutions which are into cutting-edge research, we need to scale that. There are a large number of universities and colleges where research is still at a nascent stage. ANRF is following a two-pronged approach. One is to fund research in mission mode and second is to help state public universities and central universities to improve their research culture. For the second part, we have developed a mentorship model where top-tier institutions will mentor maybe three to seven state public universities for research in some themes and we will provide funding support to that. We hope that the research ecosystem in these state public universities will grow.

On ANRF research support | We have developed a mentorship model where top-tier institutions will mentor maybe three to seven state public universities. We hope that way the research ecosystem will grow

Amitabh Sinha: Is there a case for more IITs?

There is a case (to be made) for accessible quality education in engineering. If you look at the US, the difference in quality of education at MIT, Stanford, Harvard, and the second rung of colleges is not much. In India, the decline in quality is very steep once you get to second tier institutions. If you look at last year’s NIRF ranking report, they have divided the institutions into most productive and least productive. Of the 1,000 universities we have, only 18 have been classified as most productive.

Now what has happened is that all the IITs have maintained quality. So, obviously there is a gap between demand and supply. So, if we can scale the quality of education, be it by opening more IITs or increasing the number of seats in existing IITs, there is certainly a case for improving the quality of our existing institutions. We will not address the problem of quality education unless we invest in good faculty and infrastructure.

Anonna Dutt: With the recent news about the quantum chip unveiled by Microsoft, people are saying that we could have quantum computers within decades. How is our mission gearing up for that?

We are working on both, Quantum Computing Technologies, Quantum Communication and Quantum Sensing. In computing, we have three to four research labs, which have the capability for breakthrough development. That includes institutions such as TIFR, IISc Bangalore, and for Quantum Sensing, IIT Bombay and IIT Kanpur. There are few startups also and through the National Quantum Mission we have given them substantial funding. There is a startup in Bangalore which is developing a quantum computer including the chip.

Kaushik Das Gupta: You spoke about the priority areas in the run-up to 2047, especially in climate change. Can you elaborate, please?

We have a two-pronged effort, one is to develop clean tech through intiatives like the Green Hydrogen Mission. The other is in renewable energy. In the recent budget, there was the announcement of small modular reactors. In the long run, nuclear energy will be the cleanest energy. We have not explored it that much. We are also working on Carbon Capture Utilisation and Storage missions.

On 6G | In 6G, the requirements are getting drafted now. So if we get our act together, we will not be late. We can develop technology and drive evolution. There is an opportunity for India to contribute globally

Kaushik Das Gupta: Carbon capture and storage has been in Europe and been debated extensively. A lot of red flags have been raised. What have been our learnings from them?

Yes, I am aware. I can tell you that the technology has matured significantly in recent years. We have adopted a multi-pronged approach. One is to develop sustainable practices and technologies, second is to develop preparedness for any eventualities and third, developing energy solutions which are more climate-friendly. As for critical minerals, we announced a National Mineral Mission. Whatever our natural resources are, we need to develop the technology for both exploration and extraction. Second, advanced materials have now moved to computational material science. Earlier, if you wanted to develop new alloys or new materials, it used to be a long process of experimentation in the lab. So, because of the availability of good computer processing, we are now moving to computational material science and advanced materials discovery. It is an opportunity for us to develop new materials with the properties that is desired. For instance, materials that we need in defense applications, aerospace applications, lightweight materials and weather-resilient materials can all be computationally discovered.

Kaushik Das Gupta: For renewable energy that you talked about, we need batteries and our dependency on lithium-ion batteries is still large. Is there any plan to reduce dependencies?

To have technological sovereignty, we need to have a critical handle on the supply chain. For instance, if we want to develop supercomputers or telecom systems but do not have the basic components and materials, we will never be able to attain that kind of strategic autonomy. So, it is important to have a handle on chips and components and materials. There are two ways to do this, one is we develop capabilities in-house and develop those components. Second, we work on the research on designing systems which exploit the availability of the resources which are there in our country.

As for our heavy dependence on China for lithium ion, if you develop new battery materials like sodium ions or some other breakthroughs which are in abundance in our country, then we can become technologically sovereign. In ANRF, we have launched an electric vehicle mission, where we track and support research in new materials and new battery chemistry.

Aakash Joshi: Given our best talent is going to the US on H-1B visas, what are your thoughts on how subsidising education, like in the IITs, is benefitting companies and governments abroad?

Let me tell you that the trend has actually reversed now. When the IITs were established in the 1960s, 90 percent of the graduates went abroad and did their Master’s and settled there. Nowadays only 10 to 15 percent IIT graduates are actually going abroad, 80 to 90 percent are staying in the country. That is a reflection of the good job opportunities in our country, with multinationals setting up global competency centres or people forming their own startups.

Anonna Dutt: The newly-constituted Vigyan Puraskars have run into a controversy, with reports that a few names were omitted for
political reasons.

I have seen some media reports but I can tell you that these weren’t correct. We have only a limited number of awards and there can be only limited recipients. We definitely have a large talent pool. If you have to give one Vigyan Ratna and there are three-four deserving people, only one will win. But I can tell you that (political leanings) was not at all a consideration.

Amitabh Sinha: What is a 6G future going to look like?

I cannot predict the future but with 6G, you can envisage a scenario where we have a more connected system, which includes not just cell phones, but also high altitude platform systems and broadcasting systems. More intelligence, including connecting with sensors. In 6G, it is likely that with your cell phone you can directly watch TV, it could be directly connected to a satellite, so it could also be a satellite phone. So 6G is likely to integrate all these technologies and likely to give a more immersive experience.

Amitabh Sinha: And how much of that technology development is likely to happen in India?

In India, we missed the 4G bus. But in 5G we have contributed at the global scale. We have a few intellectual property rights in 5G by many of our academic institutions, which includes my own research group at IIT Bombay, IIT Madras, IIT Hyderabad. Some of these patents have gone into the 5G standards. In 6G, the requirements are getting drafted now. So if we get our act together, we will not be late. We can develop technology and drive evolution. There is an opportunity for India to contribute and hold about five to 10 per cent of the IPRs in the 6G standards.